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more explicitly. The rise of the Nazis in Germany* was largley due to the onerous conditions imposed on them by foreign governments at the treaty of Versailles, and the consequent collapse of their economy. Any further punishment of Greece by outsiders will only worsen the situation. The best treatment for this diseare would likely be anything that will improve the Greek economy. Making the patient sicker is generally not the best path to a cure. This may be something that only the EU, US, WTO, PRC, etc can really do much about. If so then it is incumbent on all who care about this to speak as loudly and clearly about it in whatever ways we can. Our governments are not entirely unresponsive to public outcry and well placed remarks to the right ears may also help. There may well also be things that private citizens can do individually and collectively. Rather than boycott Greek products why don't we find out who the good guys are and give them whatever support we can. Perhaps there are vintners who are outspoken against the nazis. We could make a point to buy their wine, perhaps to drink at anti-nazi parties (it would be especially cool to Skype the vineyard if its not too early in the morning). Direct donations to their political opponents are probably not possible (it's illegal in the US and probably not the best PR anyway) but perhaps there are NGOs working in Greece that could use help. They could be simply contributing to the general welfare or actively promoting tolerance and opposing bigotry. Such efforts would not likely be seen as interfering with Greek sovereignty nor even smell of foreign meddling (though the Nazis might attempt to frame it as such). * I'm not as familiar with the conditions in Spain and Italy prior to the fascist takeovers. We're they also due to harsh economic conditions, or Germany's example and support, or what? Of course fascism was not altogether unpopular in the US and UK at the time. http://shqmlr.com [url=http://zrlfufdyfw.com]zrlfufdyfw[/url] [link=http://pefwakzvi.com]pefwakzvi[/link]

that it needs to be remembered that a European naiotn has no business allowing a Nazi party to exist, and Nazis to become part of the government, no matter what the reason. Says somebody living in the country that hosts the NSDAP/AO.First, those are two seperate issues: One is to allow them to exist (oh, I actually take a pretty firm approach on that, I think that parties that want to destroy freedom and human rights have no legitimacy to use the rights granted), the other one is to let them take part in government.So far, they're not on government and it doesn't look like they're going to be.Perhaps this is a function of how many people you personally know who lost relatives in the Holocaust or who fought in WWII. You want my credentials on that? Can assure you that, apart from one grandfather, they're quite impressive. Hitler and Stalin tried to wipe out my family in between them.A teeny bit more outrage and less of a casual attitude would earn my respect.I can add cut lips, an unpleasant afternoon in prison when I was 14 and some serious level of personal threat on that list, so, do I qualify to have an opinion?The idea that a European country’s self pity is express by adding Nazi’s to the payroll is unthinkably horrific.Self-pity?We're talking about a country with an unemployment rate of 22% official in January. there's no reason to suspect that the actual current number is lower, more likely that it's way more than 25%.More than 20% of the poplation are officially poor.Pupils are fainting in school because they're hungry, people take malnutritioned babies into hospitals.More than 250.000 people regularly go to soup-kitchens, that's more than 2% of the population. And if the IMF, world bank and EU comission get their will that will get even worse.So, that's what you call self-pity?So, you talk about history and the past? Well, think about what the fuck led to the rise of the NSDAP. It was the great depression, people being unemployed, people starving.And you seriously suggest that by starving a suffering country a bit more the Greek will become educated not to vote for Nazis?Or do you think that just because Greece is small it's simply OK to abandon them, don't worry what becomes of the people, it's only 11. million of them? http://tduccyoq.com [url=http://hiwjpae.com]hiwjpae[/url] [link=http://cscjtgdnh.com]cscjtgdnh[/link]

You quickly cblmied down from that position and are now trying to salvage some sort of moral high ground by setting an anti-Nazi pledge as the bar to engagement. You’re not fooling anyone.I am not trying to salvage any moral high ground. I never stepped off my own particular moral ground, high or otherwise. If I was trying to preserve some position why would I have dropped the whole thing? I expressed outrage about Nazis in Parliament. I expressed it in a less than ideal way (which I have fully retracted) but the response I got included quite a bit of excuse making for Nazis being there, and an insufficient amount of outrage about it to make me comfortable. I am sorry if your butt hurts over this. What people objected to was your knee-jerk reaction to call for a boycott, for removal of Greece from the EU, which showed you have no idea of what’s going on in Greece, or how that would effect the situation. Yes, and I'm so glad they pointd out the error of my ways.The alternative suggestion have been coming in rather slowly, but there are some good ideas in there.I strongly object to the idea that Nazis rising in a government is symptomatic of bad times. It may be a result of that, but it is sort of like noticing that a bear is chasing you and instead of climbing a tree or taking some other action, simply noting that when bears are hungry they go eat something.And there are still a couple of people who have suggested that these Nazis are not Nazis or that Nazis are not so bad or that their own bad feelings about greek economics are more important than my concern over Nazis getting elected in a poverty stricken country in Europe like in the old days.You can make this about me all you want. You can spend all day and all night making this about me. I'll remind you again that I deleted the me part of this argument.It was about Nazis, it is about Nazis, and it will continue to be about Nazis. Roger There were some Nazis about before- about 0.3%- as part of a larger spectrum and you weren’t as concerned. An increase in support to 7% seems to be disproportionally important to you. Why? What? Cafeeine[55] sounds a little like Tea Party esque disaffection. http://ydvjvcstipe.com [url=http://xaglwm.com]xaglwm[/url] [link=http://gkxtvyvil.com]gkxtvyvil[/link]

Greece, North Africa, Southeast Asia, Middle East – ALL experiencing the on-going eftcfes of America’s Architecture of the Cold War !!!!!Bob Allen, you're a complete fucking idiot. First, Greece's problems are rather significantly different from those of North Africa, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. And second, Greece's problems mostly stem from banks overextending themselves in their loans to Greece and then finding out (or admitting) too late that they went too far. That doesn't have jack shit to do with the Cold War, and misrepresenting the problem really doesn't help anyone. Go back to bed.Extremists thrive when moderates and the establishment fail. I'm not intimately familiar with Greek politics, but I suspect that the (horribly ill-named) Golden Dawn types are gaining power now because: a) the previous economic order failed completely and no one seems to have a viable alternative; and b) liberals and progressives do not currently have a coherent voice to speak truth to fear.The problems began when certain banks suddenly started extending unprecedented amounts of credit to Greece, under the pretext that Greece's membership in the Euro-Zone made it a much better risk than before. Now that everything is falling apart, the banks, and other powerful interests who share their interest in freedom-from-responsibility, are trying to make sure the people are unable to recognize who is the real cause of their problems. They've been doing everything they can to discredit and silence liberal and progressive voices for decades, and they've largely succeeded; so now there isn't a strong progressive voice to call them out and remind the people who their common enemy is, or to organize a united response to them. So when people are scared and desperate, and haven't been helped to understand the larger picture, they look for scapegoats who are easier to pick on than big banks and corporations like immigrants, whom the Golden Dawn are now targeting. How did immigrants cause the Greek debt crisis? They didn't, but try explaining that to a mob who desperately need something that looks like a solution and aren't very patient for a lot of lectures and discussion.I don't know if any rich people or large corporations are actually giving any material aid to the fascists; but they've done so before, and even if they're not, the fascists serve their interests.As for boycotts or sanctions, I'm against them. Greece needs help, and the sooner they get on their feet, the sooner the fascists are likely to fade back under their rocks.

I am addressing the orniagil question first.Q. Am I concerned that a Nazi party gained 7% of the vote in Greece?A. Yes. Now I would like to make a longer comment to illustrate the bigger picture surrounding my concern, possible ways of addressing it, and also, as a bonus (I hope) a reasonable view of the specific nature of the topic derail that appears to have taken place. Lets start with a cladistics analogy. If Nazis are Zebras, it is not at all clear whether the OP's major concern is about anything that vaguely resembles them, including say, Zebrafish you know, because stripes. Or if the concern is about all beasts of a roughly equine nature. (Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying the greek Nazi's are Zebrafish. Just wondering if the fixation on the actual word Nazi may like a cladistic fixation on stripes, say be unhelpfully obscuring the equally worrying existence of non-striped but more similar equine beasts). I live in Ireland where we are, like the greeks, caught in the terrifying grip of austerity. We have not yet experienced, like the greeks, an effective poverty rate increasing from one fifth to one third of the population in just two years. But we may. As I sit here in my double sweater cause heat is too expensive, not having a bean to spend on a newspaper, not having enough petrol to drive anywhere until some more work walks in my door (I am self-employed in a service industry), I am more than concerned. The background to all this is important, because it helps explain Obama's truism that in times of trouble people turn to God and guns. The Greek Nazis may indeed be Zebras, but there are numerous horsy beasts. on the landscape and enforced poverty, together with discontent at the enormous injustice of being made to pay and pay again for the mistakes of gamblers who run what polite people call Finance, is music to their ears and their recruiting agents. Europe itself has take. a sinister turn and it is now setting its institutions up as primary, unseating the sovereignty of the peoples of Europe. The increasing democratic deficit, the sense of being thrown to the bondholding wolves IS the problem that must be solved. Remember that in similar circumstances in1933, a man elected as leader of a people who included quite a few anti-semites, racists, eugenicists and other proto-Nazi types managed to avoid a Holocaust that was Roosevelt. And note, he did not do it on the back of austerity. We need to make Rooseveltian policies a new deal a real poosibility in Europe. Austerity is leading us to a dark place and the rise of all neo-fascist, xenophobic parties is of equal concern not because of stripes, but because of an affinity for equinity.

so in the comments. That hanpeps now and then and it is in fact why I blog, in part.3) People continued to focus on what I had originally said, not noticing my change of heart in the comments4) I used the del tag to delete the original comments so that would stop happening.5) Some commenters continued to focus on what I had originally said, now willfully ignoring my deletion and other comments. As a result, there seems to be about as much critique of what I originally said (but changed my mind about) as there is concern over Nazis in the Impalement in Greece. Yes, the Nazis are still Nazis. 6) I deleted what I had used the DEL Tag on, rather fed up with this willful and strident insistence that I must be punished for having an idea even if I totally changed it later. 7) Now you are telling me what? Possibly restoring the grayed/crossed-out version of the OP would make things a little clearer.It wasn't serving that purpose before, why would it now? This is not bad blog management. It is what I've decided to do because I'm tired of the willful blindness you and some others have insisted on. The fact that you are incapable of recognizing that a conversation can have a dynamic makes your comments very annoying. Oh, and the context of the comment thread is very much there in the comments. The only thing I've done is make it a bit harder for you to keep insisting that I am wrong about things that I've already acknowledged the wrongness of and totally changed my mind about. By the way, what is it that causes that? What is it that causes the inability of people to accept that someone else says A, then says Oh, wait, not A, but rather, B what is it that requires certain people who originally did not like A to insist on punishing someone and judging someone for saying A even when they no longer are saying it? It seems to be an internet phenomenon, found among commenters and bloggers alike. Does it have a name? Can I look this up in Wikipedia? Is it a fallacy or something with a useful label? And do people who do this on the internet treat people in meatspace this way? Spouses? Children? I suppose I know a few people from real live who behave in this way to some extent, but not many and not to this extreme. It is more common in depictions of real life in comedy or satire. Perhaps this is one of those things that emerges most fully in the context of the blogosphere that would be uncommon in real life because in real life you sorta have to look people in the eye when you are telling them again and again that they were wrong to say this thing they stopped saying, and corrected, ages ago.Your further judgement of my actions is not requested or appreciated. http://xogtpds.com [url=http://gqhzkpuhizk.com]gqhzkpuhizk[/url] [link=http://syadnzjreh.com]syadnzjreh[/link]

I almost made a new conemmt without reading that you amended the post. So here goes: Tell me in the conemmts whether or not Nazi’s rising in Greece is of concern for you, and what should be doe about it.It is definitely of concern to me. Remember I mentioned the junta before? That is ultimately the end result of any rise of Naziism in Greece, and I want to do anything I can to avoid that.Solutions are complex, and I won't write an essay here for you Greg. Immigration reform is one leg of the problem as I mentioned. Debt relief programs that don't reduce the economy to rubble, and a way to change the perception in Greece that the EU (in particularly Germany) is not actively trying to bankrupt Greece. The Greek people currently don't believe the EU has their best interests at heart.If I had a better plan, I'd probably had been running in today's elections.Nazi escapologist will be banned from this blog, unfrieneded, and defreinded, and possibly defenistrated. Why? Because I don’t like Nazi’s and if you do, you can’t be my friend or my colleague, and you can’t have my respect. Those of you who have come to the defense of the Nazi’s in Greece, either by finding a disagreement with me to be more important than disavowing a Nazi movement, or by actually claiming that they are either OK or not really Nazis or some other such garbage, are now on notice.This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you. Spend even a modicum of the effort you spent disavowing me on doing the same thing for Nazis, or get the fuck out of my life. I have given you what you wanted, a complete withdraw of all of my proposals. Now give me what I am asking for and what you are morally required to do or move along. Nazis were evil, murdering, racist fascist scumbags, and I detest them. You really need me to spell this out? Do I have to declare my disgust of all things Nazi before any issue, lest you call me a Nazi sympathizer? I agree with Dara, you're acting like a child.I am concerned about Greek Nazis. I am currently more concerned about whether my mother will get her pension next month (which is not at all certain). I am concerned about my 20+ cousins, only 5 of which in Greece currently have jobs. I am concerned that the shitty situation in which they are in will bring worse shit than Hrisi Avgi to power. I'm concerned that Greece will go bankrupt. I'm concerned because my family and friends live in that country, it is as much my home as Canada is. And I'm also concerned when people the opinion of whom I have in other times respected lose their shit and call people who disagree with their knee-jerk reaction of economic sanctions and kicking Greece out of the EU, as Nazi sympathizers and demand a show of credentials.. Thats a GlennBeckization of the discussion that concerns me as well.P.S. I hate Nazis. Greek Nazis. German Nazis. Illinois Nazis. I hate them all. http://mcgmfslrb.com [url=http://uazdup.com]uazdup[/url] [link=http://qsojqbjerpk.com]qsojqbjerpk[/link]

retorsion will only increase their revsloe?) and completely inefficient:People start to vote for the far-right when they believe to be playing a zero-sum game against the rest of the world and that therefore their own prosperity depends on the ruin of someone else. So if you uses economical retorsion against Greece, it's nazi voters will be conforted in their opinion that the rest of the World is trying to screw them.***Having said that it needs to be remembered that a European nation has no business allowing a Nazi party to exist, and Nazis to become part of the government, no matter what the reasonAnd many european countries do not allow nazis parties to exist: so guess what said nazis do: they take another name, and talk to their audience with coded language: that's what happened in France, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, in Austria In Germany, when the government tried to outlaw the far-right party NDP during the early 2000 s because it's a nazy party in disguise, it failed and was censored by the courts because it lacked sufficient evidence.**********Position on issues: Greece needs an economic recovery, which probably has to predicated on its leaving the euro.Yeah, right, and while we're proposing stupid solutions, I think that the ten poorest US states should leave the US dollar, print their own money, and use that trick to build their recovery.*If Greece left the Euro, coming back to the Drachma, the new/old currency would be devaluated immediately: everyone would know that Greece is about to print tons of money, so eveyone would try to get rid of their Drachma as soon as they can: it would cause a mad bank run which would kill the already moribond greek banking system, the Grek state without the Eurozone vouching for it could not borrow money anymore, which means that the 40% of the work force would not be paid anymore. Add in that the brutal devaluation of the new/old Drachma would mean the price of importations (including fucking oil) would skyrocket: and then you'd have a real famine (and also a high likelyhood of a military coup).*The fact is, while a lot of people love to point fingers toward the evil brusselian bureaucrats, they are the reason Greece has not yet collapsed: right wing european parties wanted to abandon Greece and let it face it's woes alone, then use the starvation of the Greek people as a cautionnary tale for the rest of Europe: the left parties were against such a solution, but being the minority, they would not force the european institutions to move. It was the technocrats who wanted to let Greece kep on borrowing in order to feed its people who made the difference by convincing the conservative parties that ruining Greece would reverberate through all of the EU and eventually hurt them as well. But there was a price for allowing Greece to keep on feeding its population: a bunch of austerity measures officially meant to prove that Greece was seriously dealing with its budget but in reality a way to give satisfaction to the conservative voting blocks.*Now, as painful as it was, the austerity that Greece is facing right now is actually much much lesser evil that what the european right had in mind in the begining of the crisis. But it's not going to make Greece better: Greece's woes are first and foremost of a fiscal nature: the country has no cadastre, the tax perception is a clownish joke, the country pays for a bloated military supposedly meant to protect it from fellow Nato member Turkey, tax exemptions and privileges which border on the repugnant have been given to the orthodox church and the upper-class: these are what s plaguing Greece and until the country institutions are fixed, it will remain a broken economy.*What can help the Greek economy get better is the result of the other election. Hollande, France's new president is most definitely Not an austerity fetichist, and unlike the USA where the Governors have little influence outside their states, in Europe, heads of state and governments are the most powerful players on the table: putting a left-wing president in France is actually altering the balance of power throughout the Union, while in Germany, the austerity fetichists are predicted to be the biggest loosers in Germnay's next general election next year. Greece will have to fix its broken tax system, but as the austerity-only camp weakens,, there's a chance that Greece treatment becomes less painful in the coming months. http://mqrtxsfi.com [url=http://byznbgoi.com]byznbgoi[/url] [link=http://mvsyimpy.com]mvsyimpy[/link]

. You can learn from history We could lenawtro very important lessons from the Nazis. They did notwant to teach us. Still. We can be grateful.1. After the Second World War a lot of Nazis went toAmerica. Werner von Braun went to America together witha lot of Nazi war criminals.Truman has said only people without war crimes can comeinto America. He was still around as all the Nazi warcriminals came into America.2. The Nazis were in Germany They changed society.After the Second World War the people did not like whatthey had done.The people stood up. They voted a new government in. Itwas a government that did not consist of Nazis. Thereare no more Nazis in GermanyYou say you do not like America. Well. The first pointgives you a reason not to like America The governmentis not interested in the people.You could do what the people of Germany did after theSecond World War. They voted the right government in.And look how Germany changed.You have the Republicans and the Democrats in America.You think you can choose either one of them. I wouldkick all of them out.All Republicans and Democrats are doing is fillingtheir pockets. Do you know how much money everyrepresentative is getting?You now have Obama, a Democrat. He took over fromGeorge W. Bush, a Republican. What is he doing? He isdoing what George W. started.I would step up and I would start kicking some asses.Make clear to the people that they should not acceptwhat they are getting now. May 24, 2011

1) try not to take people for grnetad u will miss them when their gone2) love is awesome, but u r going to get ur heartbroken at some point but dont let that stop u from loving again3) shit happens and ther is nothing that u can do to change it,but u can always learn from it May 02, 2011

1. CARPE DIEM (live life like it'll end tomorrow)2. Smile eviterhyng will wither without smiles3. Do GOOD! cos Karma is out there. (practice is good) May 02, 2011

Finding this post has ansewred my prayers

Wow,,, okay let me take a cleansing bretah after reading all that and answer the thread1.Never have a guest room2.Nothing will cool passion better than baggy underwear.3.When people discuss their accomplishments at a reunion, the amount you should belive is proportional to their distance from the bar. May 28, 2011

Thanks for your comment Gene. Google wave was an exenllcet tool for the Education setting. I loved the way you could create your own private group which can be important for teachers, students and parents. I would have loved to be able to take it to the next step and begin to interact with the parents. Each student could have created a wave where they could have shared their goals and we could have had parents respond. Parents could have jumped in at anytime we could have had live conversations with parents who are experts in a particular field.The students loved the instant nature of wave as well. We would loved to have seen some of the widgets reach full maturity.Oh well we look forward to the future of the wave code existing on apache and what it has to offer all who operate in the education sphere. http://kqwbdklokck.com [url=http://uophlscbpvs.com]uophlscbpvs[/url] [link=http://hejhhvk.com]hejhhvk[/link]

morloks 26. marts, 2012 un tu tiešām tici, ka Sauber ir iestudējuši kodu frāzes un īpašu uzvedību tieši priekš gadījumiem, kad viens no viņu plitoiem pretendē uz vietu trijniekā, atrodas aiz Ferrari pilota, un turklāt viņam tuvojas?

Tgad vsi brauksim ratā: 5000> nometam uz 3000, un..........